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Lake Saint Clair, Michigan and Ontario 2011
No full text54th edition, Feb./11. corrected through NM Feb. 12/11, LNM Feb. 01/11Depths shown by isolines, soundings, and gradient tints.; "Hydrography and topography by the National Ocean Service, Coast Survey, with additional data from the Corps of Engineers, Geological Survey, U.S. Coast Guard, and Canadian authorities."; "Soundings in feet."; Includes source diagram, table of channel depths, notes and table of low water datum for Lake St. Clair.Color;1:60,00
Oral History Interview with michael munson, April 25, 2011
No full textmichael munson (b. 1968) founded FORGE in 1994 to provide peer support primarily to those on the female-to-male spectrum and significant others, friends, family, and allies (SOFFAs). munson discusses his schooling and career, transitioning, experience with Pathways Counseling Center, and involvement in the Milwaukee LGBT community generally. He also discusses the creation of FORGE in 1994, the fragmentation of the LGBT community along lines of identity, and characterizes the passage of the 2007 non-discrimination law as among most important events to occur in Milwaukee for the transgender community.Milwaukee Transgender Oral History Project
University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee Libraries
Milwaukee, Wisconsin
michael munson
Interviewed by Brice Smith
April 25, 2011 at munson’s home
Transcribed by Benjamin Barbera
Copyright © 2011 University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee. All rights reserved.
Brice Smith – BS
michael munson – mm
Note: michael munson does not capitalize his first or last name.
BS: All right michael can you please introduce yourself?
mm: (laughs) Hard question first. I’m michael munson I’m michael munson, yeah. (laughs)
BS: Thanks. (laughs) Thank you for agreeing to participate in the Milwaukee Transgender Oral
History Project. If we can just start out by asking you what your preferred gender pronouns are.
mm: I generally go by masculine pronouns, but I don’t care.
BS: Okay. And how do you identify?
mm: I try not to identify. Which is kind of a slippery answer. And my identity kind of shifts in/
in what context I’m in. So it’s not done for kind of manipulative reasons, but because my
identity is fluid, it’s kind of nice to be differently identified in different situations. So if I’m
working in a trans context it’s sometimes really important to strongly identify as an F to M, in
kind of contrast to what’s sometimes is predominately a M to F space. And sometimes it’s, it’s
just great to identify as just kind of a regular old guy that is maybe a little bit more sensitive. So,
I kind of--it’s fluid, very fluid.
BS: Yeah. And how about the sexual orientation? The same thing?
mm: It’s the same thing, and I don’t like the labels of it because I think they’re really kind of
constricting. The word that I like the best is sapiosexual, or sapeosexual; I’m not sure how it’s
pronounced. But, it means that you’re attracted to somebody because of their brain, and how
smart they are. So that’s, (laughs) if I had to put a label on something, that would be the label.
And, and the other label that I use more commonly is queer. I’m partnered with a female person
and that would not be what is in my head of, like, who I would be attracted to, but I’m not
attracted to the physical, I’m attracted to what’s going on in their head. So, yeah.
BS: Great. Thanks for sharing. And just quickly, we could get back to this later, but how long
have you been active in Milwaukee’s LGBT community?
mm: I’ve been active since I moved here, which was 1986. So that was more LGB activism
then.
BS: Okay, and with which organizations or institutions are you affiliated?
mm: Then or now?
BS: Now
mm: Now. (laughs) Well FORGE is, is the organization that I founded in 1994. So that’s the
primary, the primary organization that I’m affiliated with. But we do a lot of work with, with
lots of different agencies in the city: with the Milwaukee LGBT Community Center, with
Lesbian Alliance, with Milwaukee Film Festival, Gay and Lesbian Film Festival, with SAGE.
Lots and lots of different organizations, so I don’t necessarily belong to different organizations,
but we work together.
BS: Okay. And what is your highest level of education?
mm: I have a certificate in trauma counseling, which is postgraduate, so it’s not really a degree,
but it’s, but it’s post, postgraduate work.
BS: And if you attended college, from where did you receive your degrees?
mm: UW-Milwaukee.
BS: Okay, yeah.
mm: Yeah.
BS: It’s a good place. (Laughs)
mm: Yes (laughs)
BS: What do you presently do for a living?
mm: I do trans work for a living, mostly anti-violence work.
BS: And, what else have you earned a living doing?
mm: I’ve earned a living, as a medical biller, as an IT person at Planned Parenthood, which was
probably one of the most fun jobs I’ve had, working in another radical environment, which
wasn’t, which a lot of people oppose. So that was kind of fun. So those were mainly what I’ve
worked as before I’ve done trans work.
BS: And when did you work for Planned Parenthood? How old were you?
mm: I worked there in, in, up to 2000, the year 2000, for four years before that.
BS: And so it was here in Milwaukee?
mm: In Milwaukee, yeah.
BS: Planned Parenthood?
mm: Yep.
BS: When and where were you born?
mm: I was born in Fort Atkinson, Wisconsin, in January of 1968.
BS: And, who were your role models or idols as a kid?
mm: (laughs) That’s a good question. It’s a question that I don’t really know how to answer.
It’s an interesting question. I, I really respect my parents, even though I don’t always agree with
their point of view. I don’t always, kind of jive with their, their, their, position in the world.
But, I think they were really good role models. They have an excellent work ethic. They really
care about people. I think that, that that has really shown me, like how I want to live my life. I
know it kind of sounds trite to say that your parents are your role models, but I think that they
really did shape who I am, and I do look up to them. They’re seventy-something years old today
and they work very, very hard and that’s really impressive to me and I really respect that a lot.
BS: And what do they do?
mm: They’re both retired. My father was a high-end executive, actuary. Did lots of actuarial
stuff. (laughs) All those numbers and insurance things. And my mom was, was a stay at home
mom, who is really good with power tools and really good in the kitchen, and really good with
just about everything. So, yeah.
BS: Wow. I wanna be your mom when I grow up.
mm: (laughs) You can try, you can, you can like, audition.
BS: And what did you want to be when you grew up?
mm: I, I expected that I would be a musician when I grew up.
BS: Really?
mm: Yeah.
BS: What, what instruments did you play, or did you sing?
mm: Yeah, I play piano and organ and was on a track to definitely move into that, that realm.
And didn’t.
BS: Um-hm. Yeah, and how old were you when you decided to stop with the music track?
mm: That’s an interesting question too. I headed to Cornell University to pursue music as a, as
a primary major and psychology as a minor. And, I ended up having some anti-queer bias in
Ithaca, New York, and I came home. And it changed how, how and what I wanted to be in the
world. So that’s, that’s how it changed. And there’s not a bigger answer to that. It seems
simple.
BS: Sure. And, and, and how did it--okay so you said it changed how you wanted to be in the
world, correct? So, so do you feel like it, or can you elaborate on that?
mm: (laughs) Um, I guess I kind of felt that, that music was something that’s really important
for people’s lives, but wasn’t how I wanted to contribute to the world. Was it the avenue that I
wanted to share with people when so many people were much more talented than I was and I had
other things I could offer the world? More compassionate things, more intellectual things.
BS: So then did you come back to Wisconsin and UWM and major in psychology? Is that
right?
mm: I did yes, yes. Yeah.
BS: I got you. All right, going back to your formative years, when did you begin dating?
mm: I began dating, I think fairly early. I know that I was twelve or thirteen when I was,
(laughs) when I was getting hot and heavy with people. So, young.
BS: And what were the genders and sexual orientations of those you dated?
mm: Well I was presenting as a girl and identifying as a girl in those, in that age range. And I
was mostly dating guys, and I don’t know what their sexual orientation was. Interestingly
enough I dated, I’ve dated several people who ended up becoming gay men. So, I mean, it’s not
any surprise to me, but it’s kind of interesting that, that we all kind of end up in this, in this queer
pool as adults.
BS: And, and as you, as you grew older, I mean did you continue to present as a girl and date
guys all the way through high school?
mm: I, I definitely presented as female through high school, without a doubt. And I, I didn’t
feel exactly dissonant in that presentation or that identity, and I think partly, like I talked about
my mom doing power tools and stuff, I mean I was allowed to do lots of things, so, being female
and looking a certain way didn’t really matter to me because I could do what I wanted to do.
BS: Um-hm.
mm: So that’s the gender part of it. I started dating multiple genders in high school. So, again
that kind of goes back to who was I attracted to intellectually. So I definitely started dating,
dating women, dating people that identified as lesbian in high school. But, I was also dating
guys.
BS: And what was the climate like in Fort Atkinson to—
mm: I grew up in Appleton.
BS: Oh, okay.
mm: So I was born in Fort Atkinson and I was adopted into the family that raised me, so I grew
up in Appleton.
BS: Okay.
mm: It/Appleton is a weird city. It’s like a medium-size city, and it’s progressive because
Lawrence University is there. But, it’s also kind of conservative because it’s small. So, I think it
was kind of a mix of, you know, super conservative and super liberal all together.
BS: Yeah. So it felt okay to be dating multiple genders in high school, but then when you went
to New York for college, it was different, huh?
mm: I think so. Well, and I don’t even know that. I’m not even sure how many people knew
who I was dating in high school—
BS: Okay.
mm: So, I mean/I think, I went to the prom. I went to prom twice with one of the guys that
ended up becoming a gay man. And I don’t know what we knew at the time, but it was--. So I
don’t, you know, I don’t know that people knew that I was dating, dating girls all that much.
BS: Okay. And, were there, were there any folks who were out as lesbian or gay in your high
school at that time?
mm: Not that I knew of. There, like I said, there’s a bunch of us that were--we really banded
together--and we’ve all ended up queer. So I think we kind of knew something even though we
weren’t talking about who are we attracted to or what’s our gender identity.
BS: Sure, you just kind of got it without talking about it?
mm: Just got it; yeah, exactly.
BS: What is your earliest memory of being transgender and/or gay/lesbian/bisexual/queer? Or
maybe do you have a different memory for all of them? (laughs)
mm: I think I do have a different memory for all of them. (laughs)
BS: Awesome.
mm: I think, I think some of the earliest memories are, I was in the Appleton Public Library and
I found this section of books on, on lesbian women. And I was like, “Wow, this is really cool,”
like “This is in the library,” like--. I think it was, like, Our Bodies Ourselves and it had a chapter
on lesbians and it was like, “Wow that’s really neat. I think that kind of like, fits me. “ And there
was a section on butches, and you know, that, that was kind of like the first, kind of introduction
to a name and a label and an association that I felt with, with lesbian, or dyke. Ask the question
again please.
BS: Sure. Well, your earliest memory of being lesbian? And, and how long did you identify as
lesbian or a dyke?
mm: I definitely identified more as a dyke than a lesbian—
BS: Okay. And can you explain to folks the difference between the two?
mm: Yeah, lesbian felt too, I guess too, I’m not sure what. Too old in some ways. Or too rigid.
And dyke felt more progressive, more radical. It felt more sexually liberating than lesbian, which
to me had more of a connotation of, not, not celibate, but, but less sexual.
BS: Sure.
mm: And sexuality was really important to me so being a dyke was really kind of taking
empowerment of who I was as a sexual person as well as who I was attracted to emotionally.
BS: Yeah, and how long did you identify as a dyke?
mm: I can’t, I’m not sure about the time frame and the language, but probably the senior year in
high school I probably started adopting more of that language. And that probably, that probably
bridged when I started identifying as trans. So, you know, through the end of the eighties.
BS: And, what’s your earliest memory of being transgender?
mm: I don’t know that I have an earliest memory of being trans. I have an earliest memory of,
of understanding what trans was—
BS: Great, yeah—
mm: And it’s a really visceral memory for me. My mom and I were watching Renée Richards’s
story, or some documentary on Renée Richards. And I remember my father, who’s very
progressive and very, I think, liberal in a lot of ways walking out of the room kind of with this
like I’m-gonna-get-sick kind of response. And I was like, “Wow, like what is that response
about? Like this is really fascinating to me.” And I guess it was like the first time I realized that,
that, that was, that gender transition was possible. And that some people have this really strong
physical reaction to it. I mean, to my father’s defense he has been extremely supportive and
doesn’t have that response to me. But, but it was really eye opening to me to, to kind of see that
response and I was really fascinated with the story. I was like, “Wow this is really, really
interesting.” I didn’t identify, like with it directly, but it was interesting to me.
BS: Do you remember approximately how old you were?
mm: I would have been in middle school, so probably early teens.
BS: Okay.
mm: Yeah.
BS: My next question. Did you experience any difficulties with transitioning when you decided
to start the process?
mm: I didn’t experience, I don’t think I’ve experienced hardly any difficulties. And I think
there’s a couple of reasons for it. And some of it is just the positive attitude. If you expect a
positive outcome, that’s generally what you get. I also spent a lot of time thinking about “Do I
want to transition or do I not?” And the thought that went into that I think allowed me the time
to not be so rushed and not rush the people around me. Because I think what happens a lot of
times is people have been thinking about their gender identity for a long time and then all of a
sudden they go, “God I got to go right now” and then they charge through things. And the
people that love them don’t have a chance to catch up to that. And because I was thinking about
it for so long I did allow people, not allow, but people had the time to kind of adjust and I wasn’t
really, I wasn’t a stickler for “You have to call me by this name,” “You have to use these
pronouns.” So I think the smoothness was about people having time and me not being so fussy.
BS: Sure, allowing them to transition as well, right?
mm: Exactly, yeah.
BS: And about how old were you when you started considering transitioning?
mm: I started considering in the early nineties, so that would make me--you can do the math
later—
BS: Okay. (laughs)
mm: (laughs) Born in sixty-eight, so early nineties I started thinking about it. I was actually
thinking about it more along the lines of, I felt more like a gay man. And I really identified with
the gay male community and I really wanted to be part of that community. So that’s kind of the
emergence of that trans identity. I think was wanting be part of that community and that group of
folks.
BS: And was it the gay community here in Milwaukee or were you living somewhere else at the
time?
mm: Yep, it was here in Milwaukee. Yeah.
BS: So, would/did you like go to gay bars? Like, where was the gay community at the time that
you wanted to join?
mm: (laughs) Yeah. I was involved in the leather community, so yeah, it was some of the leather
clubs and some of the leather bars. So yeah I was partnered at the time. I was partnered from ‘86
through around 2000 with the same person. And we both really had a strong gay male identity
within our, our female-ish bodies. We really just felt at home with those people and in that
community.
BS: So do you feel like they were able to see you as male? The guys in the S and M community.
Or do you feel like it really helped with the hormones and such?
mm: I don’t think anybody saw me as male before I medically transitioned. And I wasn’t asking
them to and I wasn’t looking for that, but I felt comfortable. And they felt comfortable with me
and with my partner. So yeah, it wasn’t a line up of, like, getting people referring to me in a
masculine way, but it felt really natural and fluid.
BS: Um-hm. And so were you able to medically transition here in Milwaukee?
mm: Yes.
BS: All the way through?
mm: Yep.
BS: Um, did you access Pathfinders, or not Pathfinders—
mm: Pathways. (laughs)
BS: Yeah, Pathways. (laughs) Not the homeless shelter— (laughs)
mm: Pathfinders, Pathways, you know, pick an agency. (laughs) Um, yeah definitely. What’s
funny is that I was seeing Gretchen Finke for some totally unrelated issues like two or three
years before I medically transitioned—
BS: Can you explain real quick who Gretchen was?
mm: Oh yeah, sorry. Gretchen Fincke founded the transgender program at Pathways.
BS: Okay.
mm: So, now, now a retired therapist and happily retired. But she was really progressive
because she had started doing gender work in I think the late ‘80s, I’m not totally sure when she
started. And I saw her, you know, for therapy for, like I said, totally unrelated issues several
years before I transitioned. I had no idea that she did gender work. So when I was looking at
medically transitioning it was like, “Oh my God,” this is, you know, I’ve been working with
somebody who’s, who’s really familiar with gender. So it was kind of neat.
BS: And did you, did you run into any problems with, you know, say getting your prescription
filled here?—
mm: Nope.
BS: How about with ah, with surgical procedures? Did you--were the surgeons here in
Milwaukee?
mm: Um, no. I saw, he’s Doctor Brownstein in San Francisco, so. And that was a seamless, you
know, process as well, so it went exactly like I would, like, you know, would have liked it to
have gone, and it went well.
BS: And how did you learn about Doctor Brownstein?
mm: I think I learned about Brownstein through the True Spirit Conference, where everybody
takes off their shirt and says look at my surgery results and people talk about who they went to.
So I got to meet Doctor Brownstein there. That would have been early, early or mid-‘90s. And I
got to see lots of his chests because people were very proud of their bodies and people were
(laughs) just stripping off their shirts. And I was impressed with his work and I was impressed
with him.
BS: Yeah. Just his overall demeanor, not just his surgical techniques? Was it both?
mm: I think, I mean, I think when people hire surgeons they should hire them for their skill not
their personality, but I do like him as a person. I think he’s mellow, he’s relaxed; I think he’s
from Wyoming or Montana and, you know, he’s got the cowboy feel, but, he’s a cool guy. He’s
a cool guy. And I felt comfortable.
BS: And he was there at the True Spirit Conference, too?
mm: He presented at the True Spirit Conference, I think every year. So yeah, he was there.
BS: And then he later did at the FORGE conference in 2007? (laughs)
mm: He definitely did, yeah. (laughs) Yeah.
BS: When did you become involved with the True Spirit Conferences?
mm: I’m trying to remember when they started. I think it was 1994/1995 that they started.
[The first True Spirit was held in 1997.] And the first, I think the first year, I did not. I was not
on staff. I wasn’t involved. And the later years I think I was involved for five years. So, must
have been ‘95 through 2000 that I was involved with programming for True Spirit.
BS: And how did you learn about the True Spirit Conference, initially?
mm: I’m thinking the Internet. Because I was involved in Internet-based stuff really early on
through like BBS [Bulletin Board Systems] type things. I can’t remember when, when the time
frame was, but, but yeah it must, it must have been through the Internet.
BS: So was that your first real sense of finding trans community, was through the Internet? Or
was there a community here in Milwaukee?
mm: There wasn’t. There was a little bit of a community here in Milwaukee. I mean FORGE
was founded in 1994, so. Again I can’t quite remember where True Spirit fit into that, and
Gemini Gender Group was emerging at the same time in 1994ish. So there wasn’t, I don’t think,
there wasn’t a whole lot that was here that was organized. That I knew of at least, you know.
Maybe there was, but I didn’t know about it. The conference in San Francisco, the first F to M
conference in San Francisco I think was 1995, so I was there as well, so that was, that felt like
the foundational conference for me. That, that kind of created, like, “Oh, there are a whole
bunch of other people that are like me.”
BS: And, did you--so you started FORGE in 1994?
mm: ‘94, yeah.
BS: And can you kind of give us the story on that? Like, how you decided to start it and where
you held meetings?
mm: We, my partner Bear and I were involved with leather groups in Chicago as well as here in
Milwaukee. And, at play parties and some events a whole bunch of our
Oral History Interview with Jay Botsford, May 26, 2011
No full textJay Botsford (b. 1982) identifies as genderqueer and trans. Botsford describes zir experiences coming out and transitioning, and zir role as coordinator of Project Q, the youth development program of the Milwaukee LGBT Community Center. Zie discusses the murder of Dana A. "Chanel" Larkin, a young transgender woman of color, and the issues facing trans and gender nonconforming youth in Milwaukee. Botsford underscores the benefits of greater intergenerational interaction among trans people, and criticizes the unexamined social privilege of white and middle-class individuals in the trans population.Milwaukee Transgender Oral History Project
University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee Libraries
Milwaukee, Wisconsin
Jay Botsford
Interviewed by Brice Smith
May 26, 2011 at Botsford’s home
Transcribed by Nicholas Roche
Copyright © 2011 University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee. All rights reserved.
Brice Smith – BS
Jay Botsford – JS
BS: Will you please introduce yourself.
JS: Sure. My name is Jay Botsford. Not sure what else you want as an introduction, actually.
BS: That is fine; that is good. And thank you very much for participating in the Milwaukee
Transgender Oral History Project. For starters, what are your preferred gender pronouns?
JB: The pronouns that I prefer to use are “zie,” “zir” and “zirs.”
BS: Okay.
JB: So z-i-e, z-i-r and z-i-r-s.
BS: So you prefer the gender neutral pronouns.
JB: That particular set of gender neutral pronouns is really my preference. I think that. I was
using “Sie” “hir” and “hirs” for a while and I think that to
